Please send replies to christin777@commspeed.net

This has, indeed, been a thoroughly enjoyable discussion!

We do agree Jesus had to be a very young boy when the Wise Men arrived. Based on Herod’s decision to kill all boy babies under 2 years of age in Bethlehem, Herod’s calculations indicated that Jesus couldn’t possibly be any older than that. His contemporary calculation was based on both the information gleaned from the Wise Men and the understanding of the Priests. Such a time line allows for Jesus to be in Bethlehem or in Nazareth when the Wise Men came, but I agree that the Divine warning to flee to Egypt makes obvious sense if Jesus and his family were still in Bethlehem. However, if the young Jesus was in Nazareth (which could be up to two years later by scriptural accounts), Herod could still have sent his killers to seek out all boy babies born in Bethlehem from outside that town who may have been born in Bethlehem during the Holy Day Feasts. The Jews kept careful birth records so such data would have been accessible. The public angelic visitation would have made Jesus (by far) the most famous boy baby born in Bethlehem during the previous two years (or in all history!). Herod’s agents would have quickly learned about it from locals and they could have pursued Jesus in Nazareth very easily. So the warning to flee to Egypt makes sense whether Jesus was then located in Bethlehem or in Nazareth.

Also, recall that Herod’s decision to slay the boy babies up to two years of age came just after the visit of the Wise Men (Matt. 2:11-12). It is noteworthy that God warned both the Wise Men and Joseph to flee quickly after the Wise men visited Jesus (Matt. 2:12-13). Since Herod thought the Wise Men’s accounts indicated Jesus could possibly be two years old (Matt. 2:7 says he inquired “diligently” of the Wise Men for information), this would argue the visit of the Wise Men occurred well after the trip to Bethlehem. The Bible isn’t crystal clear on this timeline, so the sequence of events is open to interpretation. However, we are trying to figure it out about 2000 years after the events. Herod had all the information that he could gather from every source at that time, and he concluded Jesus could be as old as two years old by the time the Wise Men came to Herod.

Discussions about what celestial phenomenon could have accompanied the birth of Christ also beg the question of whether history gives us the correct date of Herod’s death. If (as historical sources relate) Herod died in 4 BC, and opinions in Herod’s time were that Jesus could be up to two years old at the visit of the Wise Men, any celestial phenomenon would have to be in the time period of circa 7 BC-4 BC.

With all due respect to Frederick Larson (and others who have written about the “star of Bethlehem”), I think all of them overlook a literal understanding of Matt. 2:9-11 which states that the Wise Men only knew which was boy child was the Messiah because this “star” guided them to one specific boy inside one specific house. This account says the “star” actually “stood over” the boy, Jesus, so the Wise Men could know for sure that they were worshipping the right child, and it adds they saw the boy with Mary after they were come “into the house.” No planet or star conjunction can come down inside a humanly-made house and “stand over” a child (i.e. between the child and the ceiling of the house). Also, a heavenly star or object does not “stand,” per se. An angel has physical humanoid form and can “stand” over a human being in a house (a concordance check will confirm that this is the same Hebrew word describing how human beings “stand”).

Various “star of Bethlehem” books also do not consider that there is no evidence in the Bible that anyone other than the Wise men could ever see this “star” which led only the Wise Men. The “star” led them from the east, disappeared for a time (causing the Wise Men to go to Herod for help) and then the “star” reappeared to the Wise Men to lead only them to the boy Jesus. If some celestial object had cast a visible beam down upon the house of Joseph and Mary, everyone within a hundred miles would have come to the site and Herod would have easily known where Jesus was! God was keeping Jesus’ location very secret so none of Herod’s spies, agents or astrologers could find Jesus. It is my view that only an angel visible to just the Wise Men satisfies the biblical accounts and could lead the Wise Men to Jesus while making sure no one else knew where Jesus was! Matt. 2:7 also indicates Herod had to “grill” the Wise Men for information because not one of his astrologers knew anything about the “star” the Wise Men mentioned.

As I think I noted earlier, however, the above does not preclude some kind of celestial event occurring simultaneously to the star leading the Wise Men (and only the Wise Men) to Jesus. It makes sense that God would proclaim the birth of his Son to the world by a celestial event. However, a celestial event would proclaim to all nations that something vitally-important was occurring, but it wouldn’t inform anyone about the specific house (or nation) in which the event was occurring.

First we will look into the case of Bethlehem as their residence. I think we are both agree on the fact that Jesus was a very young boy at the time the Wise Men visited him and presented their gifts. I believe that they would have still been in Bethlehem though.

During the time that Joseph and Mary were living in Nazareth before the birth of Jesus, the city was being resettled with people that would have been very strict in following the Torah. After Mary was betrothed to Joseph, she had her visit from the Angel Gabriel, then followed the immaculate conception. Shortly after this Mary left for the Hill Country to Visit Elizabeth and Zacharias.

Upon her return to Nazareth in a state of pregnancy, her situation would have been the gossip of the town. According to all logical thinking she was in violation of Torah and according to the Law of Moses should have been stoned to death outside of the city gates. But since Joseph did complain against her there never would have been a trial.

After the angel came to visit Joseph and told of the news of Mary’s pregnancy he accepted her in marriage. The people of Nazareth would have viewed Joseph as the father of her illegitimate child, even though he had never taken claim of being the father. This would have made him a laughing stock, and they would have viewed him as a hypocrite. The whole family would have been treated as outcasts.

When Marry and Joseph made the trip to Bethlehem, the home of Joseph’s family, they were not able to get a room because the town was full of visitors. Jesus was born in a stable. According to scripture they would have remained in Bethlehem a very minimum of 41 days. This is described in the Gospel of Luke, with reference to Leviticus.

Luke 2:21-22. And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb. And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord.

In Leviticus 12 the days of purification for a Male Child is outlined in verse 2-5.
When a woman gives birth and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean for seven days, as in the days of her menstruation she shall be unclean. On the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall remain in the blood of her purification for thirty-three days; she shall not touch any consecrated thing, nor enter the sanctuary until the days of her purification are completed. But if she bares a female child, then she shall be unclean for two weeks, as in her menstruation; and she shall remain in the blood of her purification for sixty-six days.

The law clearly states that she could not enter the temple until at least 41 days had passed. With a stay in Bethlehem that long they obviously would have established some kind of residence other than the manger. The young couple would have been treated much better in Bethlehem than they would have been treated in there home town of Nazareth. This alone would be reason enough to take up permanent residence in Bethlehem.

Then the timeline goes cold until the visit of the Wise Men. Which I still believe would have been in Bethlehem. The biggest hang up I have with Mary and Joseph being anywhere else is because if they were anywhere else other than Bethlehem the Angel visiting Joseph in the middle of the night, and warning him to flee to Egypt would not make sense.

I also believe that a case for the star as being a celestial object is presented very well by Frederick A. Larson. He is the creator of the Movie the Star of Bethlehem. His research is very well outlined, all of his sources are listed, and he refers back to scripture numerous times to tie his findings. He lays out many astrological signs in the time of Jesus’ birth through his death. You can view all of his research and resources online at his site www.bethlehemstar.net.

He argues that it is possible for a star to stop over a location (when the star is a planet) because of retrograde motion. He also uses several points of scripture to outline his argument on how the stars communicate knowledge. He starts with God proclaiming creation of the stars in the Books of Job (chapter 9 and 38) and Isaiah (chapter 40).

He then moves into David’s description of the stars in Psalm 19. He argues that David’s use of Verbs describes the ability of the stars to communicate. Both Paul and Peter refer back to David’s passage as proof to the Jews that the Messiah had indeed come and all nations would have been informed. Even Jesus had stated that there will be signs in the Sun Moon and Stars Luke chapter 21.

He then goes into Johannes Kepler’s laws of planetary motion and applied them to different times throughout history. Using the Bible and other historical references he tested many timelines of Jesus’ birth and looked at accurate depictions of the night skies during those time periods. This is where it gets very interesting. He shows constellations with references to the position of the sun, and moon. He also notes that it is possible that Herod’s people would have taken note of the astrological events but had not put it together with the birth of the Messiah until the Wise Men brought it to their attention. He then goes into 9 points (characteristics) of the star, and shows proof for all of the 9 points.

I think that Larson’s studies are well worth looking into a comparison theory of the star being an Angel or indeed signs from a celestial event. Either way it would have been directed by God himself. This may be an idea for a study?

But you are correct in the thing that matters the most, is the gift of God’s son giving us the opportunity for our salvation.

Travis

It is highly doubtful that Herod’s astrologers could have missed any significant astronomic event. Cultures at that time scanned the heavens each night for portents. Any significant or unusual celestial event would have been duly noted and logged by Herod’s astrologers. Matthew’s account indicates Herod was mystified by the Wise Men’s account of the unusual “star” they had followed. While it is possible that a unique planetary conjunction could have occurred at the time of Jesus’ birth, such a conjunction could only serve as a witness to all nations that something important was happening at that time. In another posting at the CATG Christmas Blog, I have an item posted which presents evidence that the “star” which the Wise Men followed was an angel. Biblical accounts indicate only the Wise Men could see this particular “star,” and this “star” could, literally, stand over a specific child (Jesus) inside a house (Matthew 2:11). No celestial body can stand over a child inside a house.

Herod no doubt wanted to follow the Wise Men to identify the specific child who was “born a king.” Herod wanted to kill the child as soon as the Wise men were gone. The priests correctly ascertained that the prophesied child would be born in Bethlehem, and Herod relied on this understanding when he ordered only boy babies in Bethlehem killed. God misdirected Herod by having Jesus born in Bethlehem, but absent from Bethlehem when Herod’s “death squad” arrived.

I do not believe Herod could have sent his spies to continuously follow the Wise Men and I doubt Herod ever saw the treasure. The Wise Men’s tents would have been inside the Parthian encampment, which had diplomatic immunity. The Parthian guards would not have permitted any unknown people sent by Herod to enter the Parthian encampment. Because Herod clearly believed that scripture indicated the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, he had no reason to have groups traveling northward from Jerusalem followed. The Wise Men could also have traveled incognito from the Parthian encampment near Jerusalem to the northern city inhabited by Jesus. There is another possibility. The Bible does not tell us how many Wise Men and/or Magi were in the group. Some of them could have traveled toward Bethlehem with openly-displayed pomp and retainers, while a group of them went northward (following the angel/star which was invisible to other people). Since God did not want Herod to find the young Jesus, God could have told the angel (the “star”) to take a zigzag or circuitous path as it led the Wise Men to Jesus. Keep in mind that the Wise Men had no more idea than Herod where the young Jesus then lived. They only found their way to Jesus’ house by following the “star” which only they could see (Matthew 2:9). Their arrival at Jesus’ house was miraculously arranged, and God could easily misdirect Herod’s spies so they did not follow the Wise Men.

The Bible tells us the whole city of Jerusalem was scared when the Wise Men came (doubtless because of the size of the Parthian army that escorted them). The Bible says nothing about citizens in Nazareth being scared of anything. There may have been few or no Parthian troops with the Wise Men as they journeyed to give their gifts to Jesus. If they were led by an angel, they had supernatural protection and needed no soldiers as protectors. Herod, familiar with the Parthian custom of having many armed escorts accompany all people of noble rank, may have told his spies to follow only the groups which had armed escorts. If the Wise Men were following an angel as they left the Parthian encampment with no armed escorts and dressed as commoners, Herod’s spies may have paid no attention to them. We do not know what time of day (or night) the Parthian Wise Men reached the house in which the young child, Jesus, lived. The Bible does not give us the reactions of the neighbors, so we can only speculate about it. Since it was likely known that both Joseph and Mary were of the Jewish royal seed (and, therefore, possible threats to Herod and the ruthless Roman administration), their neighbors may have “kept their distance” from events at Joseph and Mary’s house. The neighbors may or may not have known that the strange visitors were Parthian nobility. They may have known nothing about the treasure given to Jesus as gifts.

Your last question raises an entirely different possibility. Since Joseph and Mary journeyed to Bethlehem because it was their “own city” of heritage (Luke 2:3-4), they could have had relatives there. There was no room for them in public inns when they arrived (Luke 2:7), and Mary’s labor came quickly so the baby was born in a manger. However, angels announced the birth of the Messiah in a very public way to local shepherds (Luke 8-16), and the angels led them to Jesus at the manger. The shepherds than spread the news widely about the angelic appearance and the baby to which they’d been led (Luke 17-18). This publicly-Divine “stamp of approval” on Jesus (and his human family) would have insured that they would have been transferred quickly to more suitable quarters (i.e. into a house). In this scenario, the “Holy Family” could have stayed in a Bethlehem house for a period of time, and the Wise Men visited the young Jesus either days, weeks or months later. We know Jesus went to Jerusalem eight days after his birth (Luke 2:21-22). Luke’s account does not tell us whether they journeyed back to Bethlehem for a time or continued to head northward to their original city. The wording of the account in Matthew 2:7-15 argues that while Herod “sent” the Wise men to Bethlehem (on the advise of the Priests), the angel of the Lord led the Wise Men to a different location where the “young child” was then living in “a house.” To me, this argues for a house other than in Bethlehem, but Bethlehem could be a possibility. Joseph was warned to flee to Egypt as soon as the Wise Men left Judea, and Herod flew into a murderous rage, killing the innocents in Bethlehem. Birth records in Bethlehem would have recorded Jesus’ birth there and the angelic visitation to the shepherds would still have been well-known. Herod’s agents could have “followed the trail” to Joseph’s house and found Jesus as well. The fact that Joseph was warned to “get out of there quickly” supports that view. It appears that Herod died very soon after the Wise Men left and the boy babies were killed in Bethlehem, so Joseph’s family would not have stayed in Egypt for very long. Egypt was also part of the Roman Empire, but it was beyond the jurisdiction of Herod’s decrees and agents. Indeed, the language of Matthew 2:22-23 indicates Joseph feared to even travel through Judea on his way back northward, and that Nazareth may not have been the city from which be fled to Egypt. The Bible doesn’t answer every possible question about the sequence or location of the events of Jesus’ birth and early life. What is important to focus on is that God cared enough about all humanity to send his only son into the world to be our atonement for sin (John 3:16).

Steve Collins

Travis

An additional comment on the historical context of these events is necessary to respond to your questions about Herod’s spies. Josephus wrote that Jerusalem was used to receiving very huge caravans from Parthia. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews (XVIII, IX, 1), he wrote that treasure caravans came to Jerusalem from Parthian cities escorted by “many ten thousand men.” Even though such caravans would be traveling through either Parthian and Roman territory for their entire journey, many armed escorts were necessary to keep locally-autonomous kings and vassal lords from attacking caravans and seizing their goods. Josephus’ account tells us that treasure caravans from Parthia could have tens of thousands of armed escorts even when the treasure was being sent to Jerusalem by Jewish citizens in Parthia’s empire. A much more capable escort would have been provided when the treasure caravan of the Wise Men/Magi was traveling to Judea from Parthia.

Herein lies the explanation why King Herod and the entire city of Jerusalem were scared when the Wise Men’s caravan reached Jerusalem. They were used to seeing huge caravans from Parthia but those caravans were usually escorted by armed guards who could be hired for the job (i.e. mercenaries). Herod and the people of Jerusalem were shocked that this particular caravan was led by the high nobility of the Parthian Empire, and they were especially frightened that this caravan was escorted by Parthia’s regular armed forces (the same Parthian forces which had destroyed a Roman army under Crassus and which had defeated a 113,000-man army led by Mark Antony).

Herod was a paranoid, cruel person who thought nothing of killing other people. The fact that the Wise Men told Herod that they were coming to worship someone “born king of the Jews” would have caused Herod to execute the speakers of these words if they had not been guarded by a large Parthian host. After all, Herod already was “king of the Jews,” but these Parthian nobility were asking Herod to lead them to a new king of the Jews. Herod had reason to fear that the Parthians were there to provoke a war, but he had to restrain himself because Caesar Augustus had decreed that he did not want any more wars with Parthia at that time. This situation would have fed Herod’s paranoia to even greater heights.

No doubt Herod wanted to spy continually on the Wise Men, but Herod only had so many spies. If the Parthian host had many thousands of people, there would have been groups entering and leaving all the time with food, trade goods, and necessities. He couldn’t follow every group which left the Parthian encampment. Matthew 2:6 records that the Jewish priests and scribes told Herod that the Messiah (the expected “king of the Jews”) would be born in Bethlehem, so Herod’s spies would have been assigned to follow and watch all Parthian groups heading south from Jerusalem. However, the “star” reappeared to the Wise Men and led them not south, but northward to either Nazareth or Galilee to see the young child, Jesus. [For evidence that the “star” was an angel, see a past blog entry at the reference for “angel” at this blog site.] In this way, the Wise Men were led in a direction which neither the priests nor Herod thought they would go, enabling them to be free of Herod’s spies when they visited the Christ-child. Matthew 2:9 indicates the young Jesus was now a “child,” not an infant, so Joseph and Mary were back in their own house when the Wise Men came to visit them.

I think Herod’s request to the Wise Men to report back to him was 100% disingenuous. He either was laying a trap for them or he wished to have them confirm the identity of the child “born a king” so Herod could execute the young claimant as soon as the Wise Men and their Parthian soldiers left the region. This is supported by the fact that Herod flew into a rage when they did not return to him and he ordered the murder of every boy child under two years old in Bethlehem to be sure he killed the child he thought would be the claimant to his throne. Herod had previously “diligently inquired” of the Wise Men when the star had appeared to them, and based on their answers, he calculated that the child-rival to his throne had to be under two years of age. The Wise Men were also Divinely warned not to return to Herod (Matthew 2:12), so they took an unexpected way back to their homeland in Parthia which evaded Herod’s spies.

Steve Collins

“The Wise Men who brought gifts to the young Jesus were the king-makers of the Parthian Empire. Roman writer Plutarch wrote that a high Parthian official could travel with over 1000 heavily-armed cavalrymen as escorts. The delegation of Wise Men, among Parthia’s highest officials, would have had a very large detachment of military escorts when they arrived in Jerusalem.”

- Why would Herod need the wise men to report back to him as described in Mathew 2:8?

Wouldn’t his men easily be able to track, or see where a group that size would go?

Couldn’t he have had some spy’s tag along with them?